Are Cossacks disordered after winning shock combat

[viperofmilan]

Well if that is the rule I guess that is the rule. I'm not buying the logic of it though. A disordered cavalry and a cossack have the same base factor - 0. If the cossack can bring along some friends it is not at all certain it will lose the combat. or purposes of this discussion, let's forget the Guard cavalry and look at a disordered normal L3 cavalry is charged by an I2 cossack with 2 supports. Cossack 2 supports: 0 + 2 (enemy disordered) + 1 (enemy has action marker) + 2 (friendly morale supports) = +5, possibly +6 or +7 if the Ls has any loses. The L3 cavalry is 0 + 3 (better morale and status) = +3, possibly +4 if cossack has a loss. Take away the 2 cossack supports and it is an even fight at +3, except win or lose the cossack cannot be disordered while the L3 will be destroyed if it loses the combat. Have I gotten anything wrong in these factor totals?

[zeitoun]

L3 disordered LC with 1 loss VS I2 Cossack with one support at the beginning of a new turn ( without action marker)

L3 = +2 for moral difference ( taking better status and not better moral for a biggest difference) +1 for counter charge with attack order. =+3
I2 = +2 for disordered +1 for support +1 for loss = +4

So yes , it could be very difficult to survive for the L3 ( remember that L3 win the draw )

If you can get around ennemis with you're Cossak, you probably win the game.
But it's also easy to push back cossak out of the table.

IMO cossak are too powerful as they cannot be disordered, are Fast, give 2 points for recognition, But this is the rule.

VS cossak you must have RESERVE to protect you're disordered friends.

Regards.
Olivier M

[viperofmilan]

Thank Zeitoun for your corrections. Just a couple of points. I never said the L3 was under attack orders, so lose that +1. I also see no reason to assume the L3 does not have an action marker since it is disordered. It's division could easily have been activated before the cossack division. What you have outlined is in many ways the best case scenario. I agree with your overall assessment that cossacks are too powerful for the points cost. Seems to me, simple soul that I am, that the simple expedient of making them flee when otherwise they would be disordered if they were any other kind of unit (say artillery which also cannot be disordered but flees instead) solves these issues. Instead, the author seems to feel that their exemption from being disordered (not an inability to be disordered: they could be disordered if we say they can) gives them superpowers not enjoyed by other unit types; superpowers they do not merit.

[zeitoun]

I never said the L3 was under attack orders, so lose that +1

it's very dangerous for cavalry to have another order than Attack

I also see no reason to assume the L3 does not have an action marker since it is disordered

I saw the best scenario but you outlined the worse

their is few army with cossack ( or similar troups ) . If you look at the rest of the Russian army, ( commander and line troups ) , i understand that thay can have a SUper troups

Regards
Olivier

[viperofmilan]

For me it is not a question of whether or not an army deserves some "super troops". For me it is just that the rule makes no sense. As I have said, not a deal breaker. I love BE and do not intend to give it up. Every rules set has these nonsense rules. Anybody else remember the extra-heavy knight counting shieldless against a naked tribesman with a wicker shield in 7th edition?

[Duc d'Brisbane]

I interpret that as meaning that Cossacks are always in a semi-disordered state at the best of times, as they don't have the extreme levels of drill that "regular" cavalry have. This is already reflected in the combat factors assigned to Cossacks.

Therefore a "disorder" result on them is not a big step down in combat capability, and can be ignored for game purposes.

Its not giving Cossacks a super power of "immune to disorder" - its more a case of thinking of them as "permanently disordered".

[viperofmilan]

If they are considered as essentially permanently disordered then they should give their disordered melee opponents the +2 factor for fighting a disordered opponent. That would take care of most fo my objections.

[RogerGreenwood]

Irregular cavalry can't frontally charge most troops, have the lowest status and can never get +1 for attack orders. Surely they are already very weak troops. Why do they need further handicapping?